“He gave up his comfort to fight for freedom” - Oscar-nominated Moses Bwayo on his Bobi Wine documentary

For this episode, Claude spoke to Moses Bwayo, a filmmaker from Uganda. His documentary feature Bobi Wine: The People’s President has been nominated for a 2024 Academy Award.

But first, a little on his subject, Robert Kyagulanyi Ssentamu, otherwise known as Bobi Wine. Popstar turned politician, he’s the current leader of the National Unity Platform, and ran against President Yoweri Museveni in the 2021 presidential elections. Bobi Wine has been imprisoned and intimidated countless times for challenging a man who has been in power in Uganda since 1986.

Documentary filmmaker Moses Bwayo spent five years following Bobi Wine and documenting his activism. Moses was arrested, imprisoned, and shot in the face with rubber bullets by police while filming.

I spoke to Moses Bwayo about Bobi Wine and why he means so much to young people in Uganda. But we also talked about Moses’ own path and what he’s sacrificed to bring Bobi Wine’s story to the silver screen.

This is an episode about the importance of telling stories and how imagining a different narrative can get you in trouble with the status quo.

Please listen to a previous episode: How do we improve African film?

And let us know what you think here.

Transcript

CLAUDE
My guest today is Moses Bwayo, a filmmaker from Uganda. His documentary feature on the musician turned politician Bobi Wine has been nominated for an Academy Award

I totally love Moses Bwayo and his vibe – and I know you will too.

He’s a dedicated filmmaker – he spent five years shooting the documentary – and a brave man – he was arrested, imprisoned, and shot in the face with rubber bullets by police while filming.

But first a little on his documentary subject, Bobi Wine the man who wants to be Uganda’s president –

Robert Kyagulanyi Ssentamu, otherwise known as Bobi Wine, is a musician turned politician and current leader of the National Unity Platform (NUP) and the People Power Movement. He has campaigned for hospital sanitization, malaria prevention, refugees’ rights and children’s education among other issues. He is the main opposition leader to President Yoweri Museveni’s rule, running against him in the 2021 presidential elections, and he has been imprisoned and intimidated countless times for challenging a man who has been in power in Uganda since 1986

I spoke to Moses Bwayo about Bobi Wine and why he means so much to young people in Uganda. But we also talked about Moses’ own path – how he was mentored by Mira Nair, one my favorite film directors, and what he’s sacrificed to bring Bobi Wine’s story to the silver screen.

This is an episode about the importance of telling stories – and how imagining a different narrative can get you in trouble with the status quo. This is such an inspiring conversation – I really think you’ll enjoy it. And fingers crossed, we’ll soon see whether Bobi Wine: the People’s President wins the Oscar for best documentary.

CLAUDE
Moses Bwayo, welcome to Limitless Africa. it’s such a pleasure to have you with us.

MOSES BWAYO
Thank you Claude! Thank you so much for having me here. I’m honored and you know I listen to your podcast and thank you for all the great work you’re doing in Africa and for spotlighting Africa. I think it’s a great thing that you know Africa needs today. Thank you.

CLAUDE
Well, it’s great that we can have this conversation around the film Bobi Wine the people’s president and when we were preparing for this. We realized that you and I have mutual connections: our friend Mark Gettys, we have a Sol Guy, people who are very big supporters of what you do, but let’s go back to your childhood.And tell us a little bit about how you grew up?

MOSES BWAYO
So Claude I was born in a village five thousand feet above sea level in a village called Boduda and it’s on Mount Elgon which is East of Uganda and west of Kenya and growing up there life was quite simple and you know we didn’t have much, we didn’t have electricity. There was no running water. You know, life was very very simple and you know we grew up getting water from the river. We would wake up very very early in the morning, you know, Sometimes if you go late, you find, you know, puddles of animals, you know, that have come to drink water as well. So I would go very early to get this water and. You know so growing up there I learned how to observe life and and you know the aspect of community and and you know there’s something in Africa called ‘Ubuntu’ which is like living in communion, right? living together, this togetherness. And in my language is ‘ubuntu’ which is um which comes from ‘abanu’ which is ‘people’ and ‘ubuntu’, this brotherness, this comradery, this community aspect of Africa, I learned it earlyon in my life and you know I was you know I grew up in a house with about 30 people in a house you know. Uncles, aunties and grandparents. So you know because we didn’t have a radio or a Tv, there was a lot of sharing of stories and passing on knowledge. So I really, you know, learned this aspect of storytelling.

CLAUDE
Yeah I wanted to riff a little bit off of what you mentioned around ‘ubuntu’ because even though I’m West African and my native language is Mina, you know, I was very much inspired by ‘Ubuntu because one translation is “I am because you are”, right? It’s not not about me. It’s really about the community.

MOSES BWAYO
It’s about us.

CLAUDE
So it’s about us exactly and and so as you were growing up in this community, what led you to discover film or filmmaking or a cinema.

MOSES BWAYO
So yeah I saw a Tv for the first time when I was about 9 or eight years old and we had moved from the village to a more developed region called district Unballe which is like a city in Eastern Uganda and my dad had been transferred to like ah a higher position and he was now working with the government there. And we there was a market close by and you know one time I was sent to buy groceries there and you know we have this thing, this space, we call ‘Chibanda’, and they are local cinemas that sit about 300 to 250 people and you know in there, there’s a Tv at the front and and you know like someone in the front, He’s like a DJ or a VJ or something like that.

We call them VJs actually. So he has a mixer and um and a remote and he will pause the Tv and you know translate what’s happening on a TV to the local language. And you know these spaces are built with tin roof and like wooden planks so there were holes through that we could you know peep and and peek through and see the Tv and I always was fascinated by the films that we saw there but the very first film I saw was Akira Kurosawa’s Rashomon.
But yeah, you know, they showed many different kinds of films and outside there would be like a big megaphone and you know there’s sound like blasting from this thing and the guy is busy like renaming the characters of the film and you know he adds some spice to it. So it’s very interesting. Anyway, so that was my very fast interaction with cinema and it was Akira Kurosawa and I’ve never forgotten that film until today. It’s one of my favorites. Yeah.

CLAUDE
But you know what when I think about you and I imagine you as a boy watching a Kurosawa film that is the ultimate Japanese auteur making a very intellectual movie Rashomon I would have thought you’d be more attracted to martial arts movies and films with action you know… Were you also into other kinds of films?

MOSES BWAYO
Yeah I mean yes, they would show you know like Jean Claude Van Dam you know they would show ah Rambo they would show. Um, ah, what’s her name. Um the amazing ah American martial arts actress Cynthia Rothrock. So we saw lots of those films and also Indian cinema. There were lots of Indian films as well that we saw and Japanese films – kung fu and yes, that’s how that’s when I saw Akira Kurosawa for the first time. And it was the first film I saw and it stayed with me until this day and it’s still one of my favorite films.

CLAUDE
And so past your teenager is now you’re 19 and and you’re becoming a young adult and you move to Kampala the capital of Uganda and you’re studying at Kampala University but you’re also working as a portrait photographer can you tell us about those years as you’re moving into adulthood?

MOSES BWAYO
Um, yes, yes.

Yes, yes, so um, you know interestingly I started the courses – college here in Uganda we call it secondary school. So you do these courses that lead you to what you want to study in universities. So what I picked or what you know rather my parents and teachers picked for me were courses to become an architect or an engineer but I hated it.

CLAUDE
You typical African family choices right? A doctor, engineer, yeah.

MOSES BWAYO
I know but you know so you know my parents wanted an engineer and an architect in the family but I hated I hate I didn’t like them. You know my favorite actually in the courses were technical drawing and art and you know. And I was very artistic early on and a friend had gifted me a Yashica camera and I shot a few pictures and I thought I felt like that’s what I wanted to do you know? Of course I messed up the very first negative you know it was all blown out. Everything was terrible. But ah, the guy at the developing lab, kind of showed me around and you know. So that Yashica camera kind of introduced me to photography.

I just got a job at a portrait studio with this wonderful photographer Bram. He had just returned from the UK and he set up a studio in Uganda and it was like a master class really: he taught me how to have an eye and and and like to look for moments and to observe really, and also the technical aspects, so I picked up all those. And when my results came back, I wanted to study photography or filmmaking and I told my parents look I know you know you want me to be an architect… but I think that’s not what I want to do you know. And there was a big family meeting you know and my parents reminded me of this photographer who every big occasion, comes home maybe three or four times a year, he will come home, take our pictures, and then give us an album in a month or so. And this guy has always had a bicycle as long as I can remember. So my parents were like: do you want to be like that guy? You know like do you just want to have a bicycle in your life like that’s the life you want? I was like no no no no I actually want to study cinema um,

So we had a disagreement. I left home for like a week, I found a school, Kamapla university and they had this course where you would do mass communication but in your third year you could specialize in film and Tv production. So that’s what I did um I had looked around and there was no film school. There was no photography school, the ones that were available were in South Africa and it was so expensive. No one could afford them. My parents couldn’t so I did mass communication and then I went on to do a film and TV postgraduate in film and Tv production, which was set up by this German filmmaker at the same school Kamapal film school.

CLAUDE
But let me stop you there because as you’re telling us about this journey into filmmaking. There is one moment that is the decisive moment for you which is a chance encounter with Mira Nair right? So I have to just say right now I love Mira Nair. I love her films, Salaam Bombay, Mississippi Massala, Monsoon Wedding….

MOSES BWAYO
Yes.
Yeah, yes, yes, she’s amazing.

CLAUDE
I met her in New York at a party and she’s so interesting and so generous. Tell us about how you met her and how she ended up taking you under her wing?

MOSES BWAYO
So after this post-grad in film and TV production, I wanted to learn the technical aspects of filmmaking. The course I had done was very theoretical going into like you know early cinema, the hollywood system, the New Wave, you know the english New Wave, Bunel studying um you know like the auteurs, you know David Lynch and Jean Luc Godard. Anyway so I wanted some technical aspect and I saw this program that was being run by Maisha Film Lab and Mira had set up. I think today it’s about fifteen years ago since when she set it up. And I had noticed that African or Ugandan films had terrible sound so I went and joined as a sound recordist because I wanted to improve the sound in our films. So um. I did that and then I went back – that was in 2013 or 2011 when I did the very fast training and I went back. I did the same training in 2013, as a cinematographer and that’s when I met Mira. She was at that film lab.

I was then selected as a sound recordist on her short film: A fork, a knife and a spoon and I was a sound recordist on that and she then you know told me she was working on a film that you know Queen Katwe that she was going to make very soon. I was then selected again and that’s when she took me under her wing you know. It was like another really heavy master class for me Queen of Katwe and I went on from shooting casting portraits for the actors to shooting the tapes, working with Mira when she was working with the actors. You know when they were training and things like that and she would direct me a bit and you know move around the scene you know, shoot it. Of course I was on set as well in the sound department and second boom and I came to New York for the very first time in 2016 leaving the African continent for the very very first time during the New York blizard I think it was the coldest it had been in 100 years…

CLAUDE
And what was that like? Tell us about those first few days in New York. Tell us a bit about that before we get back into film.

MOSES BWAYO
So Claude, it was like ah it was like ah a film until today. It’s a very surreal moment when I land at JFK because it brings back those memories of landing you know during a snowy winter. It was the snow falling. It’sa very vivid memory that I have, you know. I was experiencing snow for the first time. It was very cold. You know, but I had such a great time. We were sound mixing at Soundtracks New York. I saw how they were crafting the film again in post-production you know, um and you know it was like a big journey of learning cinema. The whole process was a big master class and I was staying with Mira on Riverside Drive. You know, on the upper west side Manhattan. The whole experience was like a film. You know I would walk out of the snow and you see this surreal city. You know it transports you to like 1900s America. You know the architecture is just so interesting. So yeah I had such a lovely time in New York and I learned so much. I must say the cultural shock hit me when I returned to Uganda.

CLAUDE
But then when you return you actually set up your own production company – can you tell us about Jaja Productions?

MOSES BWAYO
Yeah, so um, three friends of mine Patience Asaba, Nikisi Seremaga and Joseph Sosi we set up a production house. These are all Maisha alumni, they’ve all gone through the program by by Mira Nair, we had met you know on the set of Queen of Katwe and then we you know we reconnected and when I went back home, I wanted to take back all the knowledge that I had acquired and the experience I had gotten through the process of making Queen of Katwe.

Back to Uganda and you know so we set up a production house, Jaja Productions. The Ugandan film industry is so Young. It’s a very virgin Industry. It’s really starting to kick off now as we speak but we were one of the pioneers that improved the films. The quality of films that were being made. You know, paying attention to sound, color…

CLAUDE
But then., now we’re finally getting into the main topic. The film, Bobi WIne, but first before we even get into the film, why don’t you tell us who Bobi Wine is. I think it’s very important for our listeners to have the full context.

MOSES BWAYO
Bobi Wine grew up in the ghetto. He grew up and he lost his parents very early on as a young man in the ghetto. There’s this saying in the US that they say ‘pull yourself up by the bootstraps’. Bobi literally pulled himself up by the bootstraps in the ghetto, paying his way through school, educating himself and then you know going to university doing a course in MDD (music dance and drama) and then becoming one of the top 3 ah musicians in Eastern Central africa, going on to win accolades, going on to become a celebrated RnB artist in the region.

In 2005, he had bought this flashy vehicle, an Escalade 2005 – you know it was the latest vehicle…

CLAUDE
It’s like one of those big SUVs right? That everybody notices when you’re riding down the street. Yeah.

MOSES BWAYO
Thank you! Huge SUV, spinning wheels, you know. So he had parked outside this nightclub. You know he’s feeling good, the girls all around him… And then one guy came over and smacked him in the face, you know. Bobi refers to this moment as he was smacked into consciousness. He usually says this. So when this individual smacked him, Bobi wanted to stand up for himself and this person drew a gun on his face and told him look you cannot, you know floss around in the country like this. Don’t you know that this country has its owners? This individual told him: there’s people that own this place, you know, you cannot act like you do not know.

So the next morning he showed up at a police station to report this case and they told him that individual was a son of a military general in the country and that’s when something happened to him – that even if he had acquired this success, this wealth, you know, wonderful family, built a life for himself. You know. There’s not so much he could do, he was like any other person. His rights could be trampled upon by anybody. So that’s when he changed his music style from just entertainment and he calls this style ‘edu-tainment’.

You know it’s entertainment but educational. So from then to now Bobi’s music became revolutionary music. Ah he always started responding to Misrule in Uganda with song.

When in 2017, he realized that the music could only comment on the situation. He wanted to act on the situation. He wanted to do something about what was happening so he decided to get involved in politics and he’s famously quoted saying: “The parliament has refused to come to the ghetto. So the ghetto has come to the parliament.” so him as the then ghetto president came to the parliament to represent the common man in the parliament. You know when he made this switch, and he was you know, ah speaking not just as a politician and indeed he says you know he’s not a politician and he doesn’t want to be described as such because he says he’s a Ugandan who’s tired of the situation and wants change and knows the kind of change that he wants and you know that was the reality of most of the young people in Uganda but we just didn’t have a leader. We didn’t have a leader who was charismatic. We didn’t have a leader who was unifying the whole nation.

He was asking all the youth to get involved in the goings on of the country. He was asking us all to get involved in the politics of our country he was saying – politics cannot be left to the politicians. All our lives rotate around politics. Uganda is the second youngest country in the world with 85% of the population being under the age of 35 so it’s a very young young country. And the young population majorly has been alienated from politics. So young people don’t participate in politics and I was one of those young people.

When Bobi Wine put his foot in politics, transitioning from music into politics, he was asking all of us to get involved. Bobi was speaking to my heart and a lot of the population, the youth of Uganda, many who were like me at that time.

So here is a young man putting everything at risk. You know he had built a great life. He didn’t have to do this but here was a young man. He’s put everything on the line you know and he wants to lead a revolution. He wants to lead the young people dreaming of a different future.

So I felt like at the time I felt like you know there was something here. This was something happening before me. This was a very rare time in the history of our country that you know there was a young individual you know, taking a chance right? So I started thinking and I was like you know this could be a great film and around the same time a friend introduced me to my co-director and producer Christopher Sharp who said he wanted he had just met Bobiland in in Malta and Bobi told him look I just you know I’m um, I’m a musician but you know I just recently got elected into parliament and I’m now you know looking to to change the status quo. Ah, to challenge the status quo so that’s how yes…

CLAUDE
What so let me ask you, in challenging the status quo, clearly in Uganda that means challenging Museveni who has been in office since 1986. Was Bobi thinking at that time that given that Uganda is the second youngest population in the world, he could build a strong political base by just speaking directly to the youth with his edu-tainment style? Is that what Bobi was thinking when he was an MP looking for higher office?

MOSES BWAYO
So initially he wasn’t thinking of a higher office. Initially he just wanted to unify the opposition. He got into parliament at a time when there was an impending age limit debate. The president the incumbent president now, Yoweri Museveni, was changing the constitution to run for for another time you know for he was removing the final he was removing the final…

CLAUDE
The term limit right? He was removing the final hurdle to the term limit in the amendment of the constitution right?

MOSES BWAYO
So he removed the time limits in 2005. Now he was removing the age limit you know to allow him to have a lifelong presidency right?

CLAUDE
Got it.

MOSES BWAYO (26m55s)
So this debate was very heated, really led by, challenged and led by Bobi Wien and he was saying look: you know we don’t have to allow this to happen. Because we’re going to hurt our country and the future of our country. This is the only chance we have to a peaceful transition of power so you know general Museveni has been in power for 38 years. Uganda has never had a peaceful transition of power since independence in 1962. The first twenty four years saw coups,General Museveni and his his his his henchmen um, formed the rebel group he led a a guerilla war which lasted five long years and it was one of the most brutal war that we’ve we’ve had in Uganda where over half a million Ugandans died

MOSES BWAYO
So General Museveni came into power, promising a return to democracy, promising all these wonderful things that he wanted to do… but down the road… yes.

CLAUDE
And sorry, let’s ah, interrupt you but that’s really around the time that people were hoping to transition away from the whole kind of Idi Amin situation that came out of the Obote situation and everything else….

MOSES BWAYO
Thank you, so the Museveni government was seen as a new kind of you know, like a democratic government that was coming into power. They were coming to change things you know and they had overthrown Obote and Idi Amin and Tito Okello Lutwa and all the other you know the the former dictatorships. You know that that came through coups. So Museveni was seen as a diplomat as a democrat you know? But when he came into power, he quickly took a grip on things. Of course, the early years of president Museveni you were very successful. You know Uganda was one of the darlings of the west you know. So think about it: since Ronald Regan since Ronald Regan, Uganda has had the same president until today. And I think, just that is enough for us to think: Oh my god, what’s happening, this is the 21st century.

CLAUDE
Well when we talk about 38 years, I mean I’m from Togo and a General Eyadéma was in office for 38 years so it’s crazy for me to think that Museveni is going to be in office longer than Eyadéma… which really was already like such a long ruling period. So sorry, let’s get back to the film because I digress.

MOSES BWAYO (29m50s)
Claude, yeah, your reference is totally correct. This story, our film, yes, it’s about Uganda but it is the story of so many nations around Africa. And this is a big problem that as peace-loving Africans, you know as Africans who are progressive and want to see Africa grow, one of the challenges that Africa needs to deal with is the governance question.

Because governance affects everything you know we need to have governments that empower the youth, governments that create opportunities. You know, governments that are not bent on longevity and entrenchment into power but governments that build their youth for tomorrow, to become leaders of tomorrow. You know what? I mean?

CLAUDE
Let’s get back to the film and the director and how the two of you, you and Christopher connected?

MOSES BWAYO
Yes, yes, so um, yes, so we we were introduced by a friend in 2017 and indeed you know Christopher came to Uganda to put together a team to work on the film and he reached out and I felt like wow this is such a great opportunity to document this moment in history, that our country, that you know the the young people in our country were dreaming of a different future.

So I quickly said yes, I loved Bobi’s music. You know I had met him briefly at a screening of Queen of Katwe. His music was featured in the film so we met briefly at the premiere of Queen of Katwe in Kampala. Um, but then we were now being introduced as you know me working on his film on you know, documenting him. And for the next five years I was following Bobi almost every day of the week I was with him. Yeah.

CLAUDE
And then you were with him you were in a sense shadowing him and you know you were also shot in the face at close range when you were filming this. So you want to tell us about personal risks that you took? Because for your pains, you put your life in danger as well, didn’t you?

MOSES BWAYO
In the beginning as we started working on this film, the violence. was being meted upon ah, politicians and their supporters. Very quickly as we headed to the election not just myself alone but many other journalists some are still in some some have also had to flee the country. So I was arrested, I was arrested a couple of times, I was locked up in jail, I was interrogated um and I was shot in the face at close range close to the election. Before we fled the country, there were 2 attempted kidnaps on my wife and when that happened um, ah Christopher sharp. Ah my co-director and producer John Battsek and myself, we decided that before we could release the film, myself and my wife had to flee the country and find a safe haven for lack of a better word. Now we live in the US and we’re here seeking political asylum….

CLAUDE
Where in the US, are you living with your wife and family?

MOSES BWAYO
we live in Los Angeles and the way we left the country…. We left on a very you know in a very in a hurried way. You know like we were in a hurry as we left with little bags like were going on a trip to Europe um, and we connected through Amsterdam to the US. This film has been a labor of love, it’s been a great collaboration between myself, Christopher and John Batsek and of course Bobi Wine and the people of Uganda you know. We hope that you know every level of attention that we receive is a lifeline. It is a lifeline for the Ugandan people. It’s a lifeline for Bobi Wine who continues to fight the dictatorship back home.

CLAUDE
Let me ask you… You’ve got some heavy hitters that you just mentioned behind this film. You know John Battsek, he’s won two Oscars. He’s a very famous and successful producer. You have people like my friend Sol Guy that we spoke about who’s um, you know a great ah very talented filmmaker himself. Obviously your co-director Christopher. Why do you think these heavy hitters were interested in that particular story of Bobi Wine.

MOSES BWAYO
I think this story is a rarity you know to start with Bobi’s just ah, you know … these are characters , you don’t come by many times. He gave up his own comfort to fight for freedom and democracy. You know this, there’s a saying that goes bad things happen because good people don’t do anything you know. So when the situation in Uganda was deteriorating people like Bobi Wine have stood up and largely many Ugandans have stood up next to him right? His supporters and the people in his political party, the NUP, National Unity Platform, and they’ve dreamt of this different, this new Uganda um, regardless of the oppression and I think I think right there is a heroic story. Um, and if you see our film, yes, it’s a strong subject but you leave inspired. You want to do something. You want to do something. So we had amassed a good amount of footage in 2018 and there was an attempted assassination on Bobi where his driver died when we saw that we knew we needed to very quickly if anything could happen to Bobi, and forgive me for saying this, but Christopher and I we thought Bobi might be killed…We honestly thought he might be killed.

CLAUDE
And I mean the risk was very real I mean it wasn’t just a perceived threat. It was a real threat.

MOSES BWAYO
Yes, it was a real threat and indeed by the time we finished filming in 2022. There had been 7 attempted assassinations in his life. I will just backtrack and you know how John Battsek, the two time Oscar Oscar winner um he you know we we we had gotten a bit of footage.

CLAUDE
So by John Battsek you mean John Battsek the producer.

MOSES BWAYO
There was an attempted assassination on Bobi’s life. His driver died you know and he went to the US to get treatment and we’re like my goodness we need to start cutting something we need to cut this for. We need to put it together. We need to do something if anything happens to him. We needed to tell the world the story very quickly. So ah,

Christopher was introduced to John through another friend and then. Ah, we cut together a trailer with some footage and when John saw it he was like – wow yes I will support you guys, I will see what I can do. And we needed you know, um, another partner to come on board and yes Sol Guy with his company Quiet jumped on very quickly. You know.

It’s the story of Uganda and the fight for freedom in Uganda but largely it is the story of how fragile democracies are and today in a world where we see a rise in totalitarianism this film has never been urgent.

CLAUDE
I mean when you say that democracies are fragile, obviously we’re thinking about it within the African context and the Ugandan context but one could argue that even the United States is dealing with a fragile democracy right now. So it’s ah you know…

MOSES BWAYO
Thank you, Thank you.

CLAUDE
It’s a very kind of tenuous balance right? keeping the people’s will and balancing that with special interests. I’m wondering now that you have completed the film and apparently you and the team that were there presenting the film got a 10 minute standing ovation at the Venice Film festival, what do you want people to know about this film? The reason I asked is that this episode is being released right before the Oscars, the film has been nominated for an Academy award, and it’s a big deal. But it’s not just about the award. What is it that you want people to know and remember about this film?

MOSES BWAYO
I would like people to know we are humbled by the intention. Extremely humbled. Every level of attention. And we didn’t set out to make an award-winning film. You know when I was in Uganda, working on this I was thinking about the events of the day and what was happening, I was trying to get out of those violent situations right?

I would like for people to know that this film is a lifeline. It’s a lifeline every level of attention helps to highlight this story, it helps to highlight the struggle in Uganda. But largely it helps to struggle to highlight the fragility of democracies around the world and that’s what this film does. It shows the world. What it means to lose a democracy and what happens when you lose that democracy and this is mainly to more established democracies that we all dream of. You know these wonderful systems that we all want to have.

These systems need protection and we can all do something, we can do something. Um, so every level of support, every level of um attention is a lifeline. It’s a lifeline to the people of Uganda. It’s a lifeline to Bobi wine to his family and those around him.

CLAUDE
And you know I was really surprised given the commercial appeal of the film potentially to see that Nat Geo Documentary films actually put the entire film on Youtube so anybody can watch it for free. Why do you think they did that?

MOSES BWAYO
Yeah, yeah, so when we made this film, we also wanted to make sure it would be seen by the people on the continent, the Ugandan people, the African people.

If you take Museveni out, you take this story, you take it to the Gambia, you put it in the Central African Republic, you know you take it to Gabon, right, you take it to all these other countries, you will see that you can change the characters but the story is the same. You know, the story is the same, it’s the same story. It’s not not not different at all right? and now with what’s happening in Uganda, we worry that we might fall into the same chaos that Sudan is in right now. It’s because these leaders who have stayed long in power have not they’ve not given the opportunity of a peaceful transfer of power right?

CLAUDE
And I mean I know about that. Well my own uncle Gilchrist Olympio was the leader of the opposition in Togo for many years and he was shot when he was campaigning in the north of Togo. I mean this is such a common story in African countries around election time, right?

MOSES BWAYO
Yeah because they want to eliminate any threat to the establishment most times you know. But that’s ah I mean that’s where the dictatorships go wrong because you remain with a militarized state. So when the leader dies or when he’s ousted through a coup, then you know an end is there’s divisions in the armies and then oh then you run into the same situation like what we have in Sudan today.

What we have in Sudan today for sure, did not just happen right um. Omar el Bashir was a dictator who had been in power, known as a dictator for a very long time you know and you know and again the example in Uganda Museveni has been known as a dictator for a very long time. So should we be surprised five, ten years from now if Uganda descends into chaos? No! Because we’ve known this for a very long time. But we have a chance to change that right now. You know we have leaders like Bobi Wine. You know we hope that the world will not ignore the Ugandan struggle, if the world can stand with democracy-leaning leaders. Maybe we’ll have a chance?

And Claude, on a larger perspective, most of the problems that we have in Africa today – I’ll go back to the governance question. Most of the problems we have in Africa today and the problems that are spilling over to other countries and I mean things like immigration you know. We have a large population of africans young able, well-educated africans that are leaving the continent. They’re leaving the continent because they have no opportunities on the continent.

All the gaps, the opportunities, the environment that would allow them to thrive is nonexistent right. So they get onto these harrowing journeys on boats or they’re walking through the Sahara or you get on ships and, you know, stowaways on planes to go to these you know, Western countries with the hope that maybe life will be better.

MOSES BWAYO
But the solutions can be found in Africa. The solutions are within Africa and it is a governance question. The moment we solve the governance question in Africa and open or have these opportunities for the African youth, Africa will thrive, Africa will be the heaven it should be.

CLAUDE
I mean I agree with everything you’re saying. I recently executive produced a documentary film called Blue Carbon which very much deals with the migration issue and how so many young migrants from Senegal get on these rickety boats trying to get to Europe and it’s a really big story that we talk about often on the podcast. And it’s interesting that you’re now living in Los Angeles and l’m living in New York but I believe what’s really important is for those of us who are privileged enough to have access to more resources and influential people and big institutions, it’s also to be part of the solution and actually be perceived and be active as a bridge between the African continent and some of the resources and institutions that that we are related to somehow in the West. Oh I think it’s important to always stay connected with what’s happening in the continent and not always just complain about the lack of governance. But also think about what we can do to help to solve some of these problems.

MOSES BWAYO
Yes, to to yes to leverage the opportunities that we have presented to us and see how we can use that to change things, I agree. I totally totally agree with you. And I think you know the solutions of Africans, yes, can be found. And we as Africans can find those solutions and we need to pursue them, we need to engage, you know more, and think about the solutions. I agree with you to change things on the continent you know ….

CLAUDE
And filmmaking is very important. Storytelling is very important because stories matter, especially documentaries. Real stories matter because it’s important for people to be aware of what’s going on. As we wrap up, I wanted to change the subject a little bit and ask you something related to what you were doing before because I was really inspired by the story around the wonderful Mira Nair and how she took you under her wing and and that film the Queen of Katwe, the question is: what was it like working with Lupita Nyong’o.

MOSES BWAYO
Oh wow wow wow it was wonderful I mean Lupita Lupita actually she started off as Mira’s assistant actually and at one of the Maisha film labs.

CLAUDE
So I didn’t know that that’s how she got started. Oh that’s very interesting.

MOSES BWAYO
Did yeah and she was cast in a film. Ah I think she did like two films in the Maisha Labs you know the labs I went to where I was trained by Mira Nair. She acted in the films at the Lab and literally that launched her into acting then she was at the Uganda National Theater um and then her career moved you know, slow by slow and and you know then she she got into Hollywood but yes it was lovely working with with Lupita Nyong’o on Queen of Katwe. She was very friendly. She was very approachable and that was the same with David Oyelowo, a very great actor.

When they came on set you know of course as a PA you know you you don’t know if you can engage you know, but then you know you’re walking past like hi Lupita and she says hi back. It’s like, are you okay you know and then you start talking and we become friends. We go to know each other quite well. Ah. Same with David you know he could talk to anybody. They were very friendly and very happy to share knowledge with the kids, the kids who are acting in the film. They were helping them you know, helping them through the process. It was such a wonderful experience. I mean you know I think I said it before but I’ll just reiterate Queen of Katwe for me was a big master class and it opened a window into fiction filmmaking that I had never experienced in my life. So I definitely will be making some fiction films alongside the documentaries I want to make..

CLAUDE
It is well we really want to wish you the best for your documentary Bobi Wine: The people’s president. Again I said it but anybody could go on Youtube and watch it for free. We want as much support for this film as possible again. The Academy Awards, the Oscars is on March 10th and we hope that you will win and we feel that you deserve to win and that it’s been great talking to you Moses. Thank you very much for giving us so much of your time. Very very interesting conversation.

MOSES BWAYO
Thank Lord, thank you so much. It’s an honor to be here and to share you know? Um I love telling stories and I love to share you know. So anytime you need me I’m um, you know I’m happy to speak. But yes, thank you for highlighting our film, thank you for hosting me. I want to just thank everyone who has supported us and who has gotten us this far. Documentary filmmaking is not an easy feat, it’s a very collaborative process and filmmaking in general. So we’ve not done it alone. We’ve had so many people help us and support us through the journey. We thank you all, we are really humbled by the support and thank you, it’s an honor.

CLAUDE
Go to the Nat Geo YouTube channel to watch Bobi Wine the People’s President for free in full.

To help other listeners find this conversation, please leave a review on Spotify or Apple. Even better, share this episode with any friends who are interested in filmmaking and inspirational Africans hopeful for a better tomorrow.